Anybody actually weighed their boats with full tanks and avrage gear !!!UPDATED!!!! Must see!

[Guppydriver 154]

A year or so ago we had this thread...

 

 

My lease is up on my Toyota and I'm trying to find a truck with the proper payload without going to a 3/4 ton. I finally got around (as promised) to weighing my boat today. I was actually very surprised at the results, and could probably start a few threads with some of my questions, but let's start here . The MB website lists the B52 Alpha weight as 5200 pounds. They actually list every spec identical to the classic, and I just don't think they ever bothered to update the website, so I knew it wasn't accurate. 

I wanted a real world idea of both boat/trailer weight as well as the all important hitch or tongue weight that could greatly affect a 1/2 tons abilty to legally tow the boat safely. My boat is a 2020 B52 Alpha with the 400 motor and pretty much every option including the four tower speaker system/12 inch sub. My trailer is a Metalcraft two axle trailer with 20 inch wheels that "The Boat Shack" in Utah typically includes on the Alphas they sell.

Here were the conditions of the weigh. 

1. Full fuel

2. 500 pounds of lead.  *I removed the 150 pounds from the nose that my dealer places in every boat they sell and moved it to the center of the floor (I didn't want excessive hitch weight).  I had four bags just forward of the batteries and three bags I keep just on the bow side of the helm (accesed from the starboard bow cushion). I usually tow this way, so that's why I set it up like that. I actually tow with those three bags all the way forward by the nose, but that's going to end now. 

3. 80 pounds of salt in place of the 76 pounds of batteries I have removed in the winter (so a wash) plus maybe 20 pounds of gear if that ...

My results: From two passes, one with the tow vehicle alone (2020 Tundra), and one with the boat/trailer loaded per my description:

 

1. Tow vehicle is 6120 pounds with the drive axle (rear wheels) weighing 2680 pounds

2. The combined gross weight of tow vehicle and boat/trailer is 14,000 pounds

3. The hitch or tongue weight is 1060 pounds (drive axle weight of second measurement minus the unladen drive axle weight). This should be deducted from the       payload on you tow vehicle door.

4. The boat and trailer weighed in at 8140 pounds. (7080 trailer axle plus 1060 hitch weight)

Even if you take out the 500 pounds of lead and 20 pounds of gear, you still have boat and trailer weighing in at 7620 pounds with full fuel. According to the stickers on my trailer, the trailer should weigh ~1685 pounds. This would put the boat weighing 5935 pounds (all lead out, full fuel, batteries in). This is substantually more than MB's listed weight of 5200 pounds. Even more concerning, was my hitch weight at around 13%. I imagine if I towed with all lead by the rear seat, it would have brought my hitch weight down substantially. I'm kicking myself for not doing a third pass with the boat empty of all lead ballast. 

This has also brought up a serious issue that I have regarding the trailer's suitabilty to legally carry an empty B52/A as purchased new. I'll do a little more research before starting a seperate thread on that.

I hope this helps you guys with some insight on how much you are really lugging around. I'm sure these get substantially heavier when loaded up with gear for those long Powell trips.  I really don't have any inclination to daily drive a Super Duty/Heavy Duty truck, but I'll admit, I'm tossing it around for the first time ever. 

 

[BTown801 26]

Awesome compilation of data! When my F22 comes out of storage in May I'm going to run it across the scale. I'm going to grab one of those Weigh Safe hitches that measure your tongue weight during this off season too. I'm also on the fence about swapping out my 16 Tundra for a HD truck. Current truck prices are crazy though and I'm not sure I want to do it. 

[Wylietunes 151]

16 hours ago, Guppydriver said:

This would put the boat weighing 5935 pounds (all lead out, full fuel, batteries in). This is substantually more than MB's listed weight of 5200 pounds.

Unless the 5200 is dry weight, which most boats are listed as. As options, batteries, fluid, and tower for actual weight.  

[Guppydriver 154]

4 hours ago, Wylietunes said:

Unless the 5200 is dry weight, which most boats are listed as. As options, batteries, fluid, and tower for actual weight.  

Could be so....especially considering the boat holds more than 400 pounds of gas.

I'm used to automobiles that have a "curb weight", which includes all necessary fluids including fuel. 

[Hyperryd 3,305]

I dropped my new alpha on the CAT scale on the way home. No gear and about 15 gallons of fuel she weighed in at 6720lbs. That was the boat & trailer  by itself with no tow vehicle. 

[ProvoMB52 45]

Guppy,

    Sounds like it might be better if you went about separating the two conflated calculations you are making.  First, what is the tongue weight of the towable placing on your vehicle, and can you adjust that weight?  If you'll look at the side profile of your boat you'll see all the carried weight in your boat is located forward of the "center of gravity," the axles.  If you move all the lead you're carrying to an aft "arm" that effort should create the relief you're seeking for your tongue.  If I remember right, the rear seat in the 23' Alpha is right about the axle "datum" location, so moving your carried weight to at least that point aft will cure the % concern you've expressed.  I've always tried to limit the tongue weight of my towables to about 700 lbs or less which is where I've found my towing most stable, and comfortable. The Metalcraft trailer on our 24' Tomcat Alpha has a very comfortable balance to it with just the boat in "BOW" condition.  As soon as I start adding lead things get a little wonky, so I have to pay attention to where I'm carrying that additional weight while towing.

Second, what is the gross weight of the towable, and how does that fit into the limitations of your tow rig due to tow weight rating? I know nothing about the Toyota Tundra, I pull my MB's with a RAM 2500, or 3500 dually, and only with the diesel offerings in those RAM models.  My RAM 3500 dually had a tow rating of nearly 36000 lbs, so our 2021 24' Tomcat Alpha was barely even acknowledged as being behind the truck.  The 2500 RAM's still have a tow rating of 20,000 lbs, so again the stability of the tow experience will be much more calming than trying to drag one of these 23-25 foot behemoths over the local mountain passes.  Going down the backside of Route 20 heading to Panguitch in a 1/2 ton rig is not something I want to experience at this aged point of my life.

As far as your weigh-in data; as Hyperryd noted with his weigh-in, it would seem the numbers support MB's data of 5200 lbs for the boat and ~1695 lbs for the trailer (if you take into account the 15 gallons of gas he reports to be carrying). Not that your weigh-in data are incorrect.  The Maverik station you visited obviously weighs big rigs on a daily basis, but there seems to be a fairly sizable differential between your numbers, and Hyperryd's?  The difference seems to be your carried weight (taking into account you have a full tank of gas, and he's carrying 15 gallons, so those are known quantities).  I've always wondered about the bags of lead we all carry around in our boats.  Any chance that 500 lbs of lead you mention is actually considerably more heavy?  Even a couple of hundred lbs puts both boats within a reasonable differential in weights. and the added tower weight might be part of the equation as well, although Hyperryd's numbers seem to negate that thought?  The other thing that may add some differential is the wheels and tires on each trailer.  The 20" rims running on your Metalcraft are likely much bigger, and therefore much heavier, than is Hyperryd's if he's pulling a Boatmate trailer with smaller rims and tires?  Not sure on that data, just trying to find the separation of weigh-in info?

The only other thing I would add, and this is purely personal choice, I've been towing boats, trailers, and other towables for a great many years, and have learned through sad financial experience, I'm much more comfortable towing a 6000-8000 lb rig with a 3/4 or 1 ton truck, rather than a 1/2 ton.  I know the truck manufacturers data will tell you the truck "can" do it through their tow rating system, but it sounds to me like even you have the experience of towing a boat with a 1/2 ton vs towing with a 3/4 ton or bigger, and those experiences are just not the same. Yes Super Duty trucks cost more, get worse gas mileage, etc., etc., etc., but one does not buy a Super Duty truck because they get great gas mileage.  One does not buy a 1/2 ton truck because they get great gas mileage.  So the bigger trucks cost more to purchase, and cost more to operate. Fact!  That translates to more money coming out of my pocket for the priceless memories I have been able to create with my family for decades.

I'll just go make more money.

[bloodiestcadaver 382]

Your pushing it for the tundra but I think you will be fine. I think the tundra has a 10k tow capacity, which you are within spec.  I had no issues towing with my tundra. I will admit I am overloaded when going to powell just a bit with the gear in my bed, But When I compare it to my "new to me" 19 gmc, the tundra felt more stable.  I think if anything try and get your tongue weight down just a hair to that 10 percent general rule.  that may be just as little as putting your bags over the axle instead of in front

[Hyperryd 3,305]

7 hours ago, ProvoMB52 said:

The 20" rims running on your Metalcraft are likely much bigger, and therefore much heavier, than is Hyperryd's if he's pulling a Boatmate trailer with smaller rims and tires? 

Just for information purposes my trailer has 18” wheels & tires. Probably not a huge weight difference. 

[AZ_MB 437]

I don't believe you're calculating your total boat and trailer weight correctly. Adding trailer axle plus hitch doesn't account for the reduced steer axle weight (due to heavy tongue weight). Your actual boat and trailer weight is the difference between your two gross amounts.  14,000 - 6,120 =7,880 lbs

410 lbs of fuel plus 500 lbs of lead leaves you with 6,970 for boat and trailer. Minus 1,685 for the trailer and you're boat is at 5,285. You said you had a little gear so the MB spec of 5,200 lbs stock dry weight looks pretty accurate.

As for towing safely, figure you're going to be around 8k lbs on given day with more gear on board. The 2020 Tundra has a tow rating of 10k give or take depending on which model you have so you're well within spec there. The other thing to consider is your Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating (GCWVR) which is the total weight of your tow vehicle with passengers and gear along with what you're towing.

Assuming your Tundra has the tow package, GCVWR looks to be 15,160 - 16,000 lbs depending on whether or not you have the large fuel tank. At 14,000 lbs gross weight you're still well within your specifications. I would confirm the GCVWR for your setup so you know how much margin you have in terms of passengers and gear for a trip.

In conclusion, you aren't overloaded. You should get your tongue weight corrected and I would expect the Tundra to tow it well. If you want to buy a bigger truck the additional margin is always nice, but it's not necessary. My trailer has disc brakes on both axles and I assume yours does too. This means you aren't towing any unbraked weight and should have reasonable stopping distance. The area you'll likely notice things more is climbing a steep grade. You may only go 55 mph up the hill instead of 70 mph.

[Guppydriver 154]

On 12/21/2021 at 9:26 AM, ProvoMB52 said:

Guppy,

    Sounds like it might be better if you went about separating the two conflated calculations you are making.  First, what is the tongue weight of the towable placing on your vehicle, and can you adjust that weight?  If you'll look at the side profile of your boat you'll see all the carried weight in your boat is located forward of the "center of gravity," the axles.  If you move all the lead you're carrying to an aft "arm" that effort should create the relief you're seeking for your tongue.  If I remember right, the rear seat in the 23' Alpha is right about the axle "datum" location, so moving your carried weight to at least that point aft will cure the % concern you've expressed.  I've always tried to limit the tongue weight of my towables to about 700 lbs or less which is where I've found my towing most stable, and comfortable. The Metalcraft trailer on our 24' Tomcat Alpha has a very comfortable balance to it with just the boat in "BOW" condition.  As soon as I start adding lead things get a little wonky, so I have to pay attention to where I'm carrying that additional weight while towing.

Second, what is the gross weight of the towable, and how does that fit into the limitations of your tow rig due to tow weight rating? I know nothing about the Toyota Tundra, I pull my MB's with a RAM 2500, or 3500 dually, and only with the diesel offerings in those RAM models.  My RAM 3500 dually had a tow rating of nearly 36000 lbs, so our 2021 24' Tomcat Alpha was barely even acknowledged as being behind the truck.  The 2500 RAM's still have a tow rating of 20,000 lbs, so again the stability of the tow experience will be much more calming than trying to drag one of these 23-25 foot behemoths over the local mountain passes.  Going down the backside of Route 20 heading to Panguitch in a 1/2 ton rig is not something I want to experience at this aged point of my life.

As far as your weigh-in data; as Hyperryd noted with his weigh-in, it would seem the numbers support MB's data of 5200 lbs for the boat and ~1695 lbs for the trailer (if you take into account the 15 gallons of gas he reports to be carrying). Not that your weigh-in data are incorrect.  The Maverik station you visited obviously weighs big rigs on a daily basis, but there seems to be a fairly sizable differential between your numbers, and Hyperryd's?  The difference seems to be your carried weight (taking into account you have a full tank of gas, and he's carrying 15 gallons, so those are known quantities).  I've always wondered about the bags of lead we all carry around in our boats.  Any chance that 500 lbs of lead you mention is actually considerably more heavy?  Even a couple of hundred lbs puts both boats within a reasonable differential in weights. and the added tower weight might be part of the equation as well, although Hyperryd's numbers seem to negate that thought?  The other thing that may add some differential is the wheels and tires on each trailer.  The 20" rims running on your Metalcraft are likely much bigger, and therefore much heavier, than is Hyperryd's if he's pulling a Boatmate trailer with smaller rims and tires?  Not sure on that data, just trying to find the separation of weigh-in info?

The only other thing I would add, and this is purely personal choice, I've been towing boats, trailers, and other towables for a great many years, and have learned through sad financial experience, I'm much more comfortable towing a 6000-8000 lb rig with a 3/4 or 1 ton truck, rather than a 1/2 ton.  I know the truck manufacturers data will tell you the truck "can" do it through their tow rating system, but it sounds to me like even you have the experience of towing a boat with a 1/2 ton vs towing with a 3/4 ton or bigger, and those experiences are just not the same. Yes Super Duty trucks cost more, get worse gas mileage, etc., etc., etc., but one does not buy a Super Duty truck because they get great gas mileage.  One does not buy a 1/2 ton truck because they get great gas mileage.  So the bigger trucks cost more to purchase, and cost more to operate. Fact!  That translates to more money coming out of my pocket for the priceless memories I have been able to create with my family for decades.

I'll just go make more money.

Always appreciate and value your input and posts @ProvoMB52, thanks for the lengthy response!

My intent though was primarily to inform and I didn't really have any issues worthy of conflation.  I just wanted to point out that many if us (myself included), seem to tow without a second thought of tongue weight and how cargo placement noticeably affects arm and moment . Most of us leave the lead in the nose, put a lot of "stuff" in the bow whilst towing where it is least affected by wind, and just assume the weight is more or less what MB tells us it is. I was just hoping it would open a few eyes on how much these things actually weigh and how the "rule of thumb" of a boat having a hitch weight of ~7% isn't always true considering how dummies like me typically load em' up. 

I'm pretty sure @Hyperrydhas a very comparably equipped boat to mine , so I am also a little surprised by the delta in weight. I agree there could be small discrepancies in lead weight bags and what not, but certainly not enough to account for such a noticeable difference. Again, I had 500 lbs. in lead, about 400 pounds in gas, 80 in salt (tbf...in place of the missing batteries), and no more than 50-100 pounds of other "stuff" in the boat. If my results are within 11-1200 pounds of his, we are in same ball park. My trailer is probably 20 pounds more per wheel than his is as well (both the rims and the rubber weigh more). 

Where I completely agree with you is that we are encroaching on a weight where absolutely, unequivocally a HD/SD is better suited for the task. If I regularly towed year round, then I would be committed to going that route. I'm just not sure towing from Lehi to Deer Creek once or so a week for a boating season and one "long trip" a season constitutes towing regularly.  90% percent of my annual driving is unladen and unhitched so I'm not sure I want to sacrifice the agility, fuel economy, and comfort and tech a 1/2 ton provides when I'm still keeping said half ton at least 20% off it's max tow numbers.  I also agree these max tow wars between the big three half tons are silly. You run out of payload longggg before you hit max towing capacity. Hell, my wife's Explorer has more payload capacity than my Tundra (which is less than 1100 pounds).

[Guppydriver 154]

On 12/22/2021 at 1:13 PM, AZ_MB said:

I don't believe you're calculating your total boat and trailer weight correctly. Adding trailer axle plus hitch doesn't account for the reduced steer axle weight (due to heavy tongue weight). Your actual boat and trailer weight is the difference between your two gross amounts.  14,000 - 6,120 =7,880 lbs

410 lbs of fuel plus 500 lbs of lead leaves you with 6,970 for boat and trailer. Minus 1,685 for the trailer and you're boat is at 5,285. You said you had a little gear so the MB spec of 5,200 lbs stock dry weight looks pretty accurate.

As for towing safely, figure you're going to be around 8k lbs on given day with more gear on board. The 2020 Tundra has a tow rating of 10k give or take depending on which model you have so you're well within spec there. The other thing to consider is your Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating (GCWVR) which is the total weight of your tow vehicle with passengers and gear along with what you're towing.

Assuming your Tundra has the tow package, GCVWR looks to be 15,160 - 16,000 lbs depending on whether or not you have the large fuel tank. At 14,000 lbs gross weight you're still well within your specifications. I would confirm the GCVWR for your setup so you know how much margin you have in terms of passengers and gear for a trip.

In conclusion, you aren't overloaded. You should get your tongue weight corrected and I would expect the Tundra to tow it well. If you want to buy a bigger truck the additional margin is always nice, but it's not necessary. My trailer has disc brakes on both axles and I assume yours does too. This means you aren't towing any unbraked weight and should have reasonable stopping distance. The area you'll likely notice things more is climbing a steep grade. You may only go 55 mph up the hill instead of 70 mph.

That first paragraph is extremely helpful. I'll admit I was just using a formula I found on a different forum ( see pic) to add the hitch plus trailer axle to get boat/trailer. Of course when I think about, of course you are correct. I know exactly how much my TV weighs from the first pass, so obviously any additional weight on the second pass is going to be exclusively dedicated to the trailer/boat/cargo. I didn't use my noggin enough to take into account that the weight on the tongue would also cause some of the previous steer axle weight to be transferred to the drive axle. Now I notice that the steer axle is actually lighter on the truck alone than the truck with trailer further validating your post.  

Is it safe to presume that the tongue weight is still 1080 since that is definitively the increased weight on the drive axle compared to the TV by itself? Or is the actual tongue weight 820 pounds (the increase in drive axle weight minus the difference of steer axle weight)?

Thanks for your input!!!

By the way...Tundra comes off lease in May. I've waited a long time for the new ones, but am disappointed in the looks, so I will be buying a F150 more than likely (which has more payload ~1500).

[bloodiestcadaver 382]

On 12/23/2021 at 4:45 PM, Guppydriver said:

That first paragraph is extremely helpful. I'll admit I was just using a formula I found on a different forum ( see pic) to add the hitch plus trailer axle to get boat/trailer. Of course when I think about, of course you are correct. I know exactly how much my TV weighs from the first pass, so obviously any additional weight on the second pass is going to be exclusively dedicated to the trailer/boat/cargo. I didn't use my noggin enough to take into account that the weight on the tongue would also cause some of the previous steer axle weight to be transferred to the drive axle. Now I notice that the steer axle is actually lighter on the truck alone than the truck with trailer further validating your post.  

Is it safe to presume that the tongue weight is still 1080 since that is definitively the increased weight on the drive axle compared to the TV by itself? Or is the actual tongue weight 820 pounds (the increase in drive axle weight minus the difference of steer axle weight)?

Thanks for your input!!!

By the way...Tundra comes off lease in May. I've waited a long time for the new ones, but am disappointed in the looks, so I will be buying a F150 more than likely (which has more payload ~1500).

Dang! I love that new tundra. great performance numbers and a 10 speed trans.  I just didn't like that my platinum was 52k and the new ones are 66k. Also that they are using a 3.5 twin turbo like ford, And I just see so many issues with those in my shop

My whole thought was like yours I tow in the summer months on the weekends, so the other 90 percent is daily and light loads. I just never seen the reason for a 3/4 ton diesel, just to make it easier on "my" truck. That truck works for me lol. I don't care if it struggles alittle. I always felt safe and if the specs are within im gonna send it.  

[AZ_MB 437]

On 12/23/2021 at 4:45 PM, Guppydriver said:

Is it safe to presume that the tongue weight is still 1080 since that is definitively the increased weight on the drive axle compared to the TV by itself? Or is the actual tongue weight 820 pounds (the increase in drive axle weight minus the difference of steer axle weight)?

Thanks for your input!!!

By the way...Tundra comes off lease in May. I've waited a long time for the new ones, but am disappointed in the looks, so I will be buying a F150 more than likely (which has more payload ~1500).

Good questions.  Your 2nd method is correct, but your calculation is slightly off.  The increased weight on the drive axle is 1,060 lbs (not 1,080).  Subtracting out the reduced steer axle weight of 260 lbs and you end up with 800 lbs of tongue weight.  One other method would be to take the total boat and trailer weight of 7,880 lbs and subtract out the measurement of the trailer axle (7,080 lbs).  This also equals 800 lbs.  So your tongue weight is about 11% of the total trailer weight.  800 / 7080 = 0.1123 or 11.23%

I'm not sure if you plan to weigh everything again, but it would be interesting to see how these numbers change if you move the lead toward the transom.  It should reduce your tongue weight significantly the further back you go.  Does the rear of the truck sag quite a bit as it?  How is the overall feel when towing?

[Guppydriver 154]

Sorry about my math in public AZ.. I really appreciate your input. 

Definitely going to weigh again. I have decent sag, but I wouldn’t say it is noticeably more than what you see other half tons sagging on say the popular YouTube review site “TFL”. 

My next truck will have a bit more payload and I will definitely be a bit more conscientious about my putting weight in the bow.

That being said, I’m a bit more concerned about being sold a trailer that seemingly is WELL under certified to tow my boat. 😬

 

[AZ_MB 437]

On 12/29/2021 at 7:35 PM, Guppydriver said:

Sorry about my math in public AZ.. I really appreciate your input. 

Definitely going to weigh again. I have decent sag, but I wouldn’t say it is noticeably more than what you see other half tons sagging on say the popular YouTube review site “TFL”. 

My next truck will have a bit more payload and I will definitely be a bit more conscientious about my putting weight in the bow.

That being said, I’m a bit more concerned about being sold a trailer that seemingly is WELL under certified to tow my boat. 😬

 

My math is wrong plenty of times too.  Just ask my wife who can attest to the fact that several of my projects have left an extra hole in the wall. 😄